[Official] LOST Ep. 5.14 Discussion

[mrdemanding]

Was I the only one who got the feeling that the 'WH,H' rule began to fall apart for some unknown reason tonight?

"We are the Variables, we have Free Will"

"For the first time in a long time I have no idea what's going to happen..." even though the island supposedly isn't done with him.

SOMETHING is changing...

I don't understand why people are taking WHH as a rule imposed on the losties? It isn't! It's not like they should go back in time and do again what they did! No, They're doing these things for the first time! And because of this, they have free will and freedom of choice? They will choose to do things, to take some actions, and these actions are going to have only one outcome which is the future as we saw it, because there is only one future and if the future is different then it means they should not be here in the first place.

You have to see the WHH from 3 perspectives:
1- The losties perspective: It's their present, and not their past, eventhough they are in the 70s. They never took any decision any choice yet and now they are going to decide what to do towards every situation they face in the 70s just like you do in your daily life. What they will decide and CHOOSE to do, will affect the other people in the 70s, whom 2007 is their future. Those people's actions along with losties actions will build up to form the future that we've already seen.
So in other way, the show should have started in 1974 and showed us how things happened linearly until 2007. Free will is there.
2- The People in the 70s perspective: This is their present, they don't know yet anything about the future as opposed to the losties, and they're taking their decisions out of free will as well. What they will decide and choose to do will affect the losties actions and will build up to form the furture that we know too.
3- The people that stayed alive after the 70s perspective: Like Widmore, Ellouise... These people encountered our losties in their present 70s, grew up, aged, and remember all through their lives what happened in the 70s in their early ages. That's why they know things about the 70s era that our losties do not know. Like Elouise shooting her son.

So that said, I don't see that there is no free will or freedom to choose. WHH is a little bit getting people confused taking it as something imposed and that the losties have to go back and do what they did. No, it meant to say that our losties will take choices and do things which will lead to what happened in 2007. In other way it should be said, What Happened in 2007, happened and to know why and how it happened, watch Season 5.

[crikey]

Excellent explanation mrdemanding. Spot on.

[mazly88]

Faraday can't be the 'big death' at the end of the season. Darlton said it would have a tear-jerk factor equal to Charlie's swim - I reckon this is just a teaser to distract us before sayid gets a bullet.

The incident is gonna result from Jack and Locke both trying some crazy **** at the temple to get everyone 'where they belong' - both ruin it for the other one.

Also, Why have all our Losties forgotten Claire? Been some hectic things occurring but she hasn't even got a mention.

[mrdemanding]

Thanks Crikey:-)

Now time for questions and torments:

WHH:
I'm thinking that if ever there is a way to change the past to uncrash flight 815, like when Dan was explaining, then what? People off island, witnessed the crash of 815 and the return of the O6. Does changing the past mean rewinding the future 3 years back and then setting it to play as nothing has happened? Is it going to flash the whole 2007 world 3 years backward? Does that mean that all the dead characters will have to come back to the show to land in LA?
I think this is not plausible and i can't buy it, I think the writers are solidifying the WHH rule, Dan thought he can make a change, THAT's WHAT HE ALWAYS THOUGHT, but his mother shot him. His plan is down to pieces, unless someone else will pick it, like Jack and Kate since they knew what he was up to, and then by blowing Jugghead, will lead to the incident and them transported to the 2007 maybe. So WHH stands true, when they thought they were making a change, by choosing so, they did what exactly happened and lead to the incident.

Daniel's Notebook:
Can anyone gives me a hand here? I am not trying to figure this out!
If Daniel wrote his notebook, about Dharma, then there is only one time that he was able to write it which is when he was back to 70s. Let's say that this notebook feel into Ellouise's hands after she shot him and so gave it to him at his graduation. Then how come Dan is reading this notebook to know when Chang will be arriving at the Orchid and mostly, how can he be reading about the incident, which hasn't happened yet in his timeline I thought he should be writing it instead of reading. Who wrote it? And When? If he's reading his own writings that means at some point he wrote those notes while he was in 70s and he experienced the events to write about them, then notebook fell into Ellie's hands and so she gave it to him in her future. But we haven't seen Dan writing his notes about Chang arriving to the Orchid we saw him reading it! And if he's shot now, I don't see when how he will write about the Swan incident? Could it be that it's not him who wrote those notes?

Richard/Dan
Some people thought that Richard didn't recognize Dan when he saw him, and were surprised cause we know that he met him in 1954. Well first Richard's "Do I know you?" doesn't feel like a memory wasn't triggered in his mind. You don't ask people "Do I know you?" unless you feel like you know them, otherwise you will ask "Who are you?". If you've seen someone for a short time 23 years ago, and then you see him again, you won't directly recognize him but you will feel that you've seen him somewhere and it might take you some minutes before you remember where exactly, but the first thing that comes out from you is "Do I know you?"

Desmond
Desmond is special in a way that he can be "contacted" by people in his past and it will be induced in his present as a memory or a vision or a dream, like when Dan knocked on his door asking him to go to his mother and ask for her help. Elouise was helping anyway and she already had Jack et all on the way to go back.

Eloise didn't know about how Desmond will be when he was shot, not because it's not written in Dan's notebook like some people said, that notebook has information about the 70s only. But Eloise was always able to see the future, like when she told Desmond about that construction man who will die. But this time she couldn't tell about Desmond, could be because he's "special and the rules do not apply on him".

Thanks for reading and please can you elaborate on Dan's notebook questions about?

Cheers!

[MattSilver]

Also, Why have all our Losties forgotten Claire? Been some hectic things occurring but she hasn't even got a mention.

Well, Kate mentioned to Carole Littleton she went back to the island to find Claire, right? And... this very episode we have Jack confirming that he thinks what Kate's looking for is not in the 70's... and Claire is in the future... I think that's mention enough.

And besides, talking about Claire's disappearance randomly in the middle of the survivors' escape from the Dharma folk is kind of... unrelated.

[cassiopeia]

Hi Guys, I have been posting on another forum but not as many are watching at ABC pace like me so I thought I’d come see what your threads are doing. I see you have the same WHH problem here, is it or isn’t it? I think it is ultimately WHH but that small changes can be made. I think Dharma have managed to create a (test case) loop in time to try to change the Valenzetti Equation. We are seeing this loop and some of what we consider to be continuity errors are actually slight differences that are made in each loop. Have you read a theory on DarkUFO based on fiction by Greg Egan and something called “quantum supposition”?

-- Merged Double Post --

Yes I think that the diary has been written in by other people - perhaps Ellie. Unless in Daniel's experiments on himself he has travelled through time and recorded them in his diary. He wouldn't have remembered it coz of his memory problems. Remember when he sat on the beech and looked at the diary as if things had just appeared. maybe it was because he'd just made a connection to something on the island that matched what was in this mysterious diary he had and didn't know wher it had come from. It must be a ontological paradox though, if it's travelling in the loop.

[SmokeyD]

Daniel's Notebook:
Can anyone gives me a hand here? I am not trying to figure this out!
If Daniel wrote his notebook, about Dharma, then there is only one time that he was able to write it which is when he was back to 70s. Let's say that this notebook feel into Ellouise's hands after she shot him and so gave it to him at his graduation. Then how come Dan is reading this notebook to know when Chang will be arriving at the Orchid and mostly, how can he be reading about the incident, which hasn't happened yet in his timeline I thought he should be writing it instead of reading. Who wrote it? And When? If he's reading his own writings that means at some point he wrote those notes while he was in 70s and he experienced the events to write about them, then notebook fell into Ellie's hands and so she gave it to him in her future. But we haven't seen Dan writing his notes about Chang arriving to the Orchid we saw him reading it! And if he's shot now, I don't see when how he will write about the Swan incident? Could it be that it's not him who wrote those notes?

Desmond
Desmond is special in a way that he can be "contacted" by people in his past and it will be induced in his present as a memory or a vision or a dream, like when Dan knocked on his door asking him to go to his mother and ask for her help. Elouise was helping anyway and she already had Jack et all on the way to go back.

Eloise didn't know about how Desmond will be when he was shot, not because it's not written in Dan's notebook like some people said, that notebook has information about the 70s only. But Eloise was always able to see the future, like when she told Desmond about that construction man who will die. But this time she couldn't tell about Desmond, could be because he's "special and the rules do not apply on him".

Wow, that's a lot, but I will throw my two sense towards some it it...

Faraday's Notebook - Nothing says that Faraday is the only person who every wrote in it. Just because he may or may not be dead it doesn't mean that someone else may get a hold ot it, and figure out what it is, and make some other notations in it for him. With the understanding that Daniel gets it back in the Future...

Desmond - I see some bad mojo coming here. For as much as I think his character is needed, He also is in a perfect position ot be the next Charlie for many viewers...

Possible Island induced healing of Faraday - It would seem strange to me that if he does get healed wouldn't Eloise know this? She seemed to realize that she was sending him to his death outside of the hospitol. If he does survive wouldn't she remember this?

All in all a great episode though, It was a nice departure from SLIH and the clip show, it makes a perfect bookend to Dead is Dead.

I have to confess, I was one who thought that Ben had something to do with the fake 815 crash. I was pleasently provided wrong...

[yannick-sker]

I'm truly disappointed by this episode. I feel alone as i only read good critics around the web, but I watched twice and i can't like it.

In fact i excepted so much more! Like what Dan did at Ann Arbor, who did he met there (De Groots, Vallenzetti, the wan who worked at The Lamp Post in order to discover the Island... ), why the (so secretive) Swan was created, I wanted an "on-show" explanation for the numbers and, furthermore, how Dan ended up studying the Dharma Initative works all his life (as he told us at the begining of Season 5). Did his mom told him about them when he was younger?

But no, we didn't have any mythological answer. Plus how can he predicts the exact hour of the incident, and the arrival of Chang at the Orchid??

I feel frustrated, and I'm afraid we that a lot of questions won't be answered. Like why the DI were looking for this particular place, how did they hear about it, etc...

[Ciubia]

Great episode! It left me on the edge for the next episode and for the finale!! Things are starting to pick up the pace and we are headed for a mindblowing finale, I'm sure!

But what happened to Dan was so sad... killed by is own mother... And she knew it all along

[sliverme]

I'll just leave this here...

[Water]

isn't that weird.. I didn't care for it too much. I felt it confirmed TOO many things... gave too many answers. For the first time, I really felt like the show was getting into a position where it could wind down.

One question I do have is ""Who's right?". Eloise or Daniel? Are the Losties suppose to be there on the Island or not?

My gut tells me that Eloise is right.. at least to a certain extent. If it was Daniel's job to use the H-Bomb to blow up the magnetic hoocha-ma-call-it at the Swan by finding the Hostiles then he needed Jack and Kate to take him there. Sawyer and Miles refused. Of course that doesn't explain why she said ALL the Losties had to return to the Island. It only explains why Jack and Kate had to be there. *UNLESS* one by one all the Losties die in the effort to detonate that bomb.. or do whatever they need to do to fix the problem. In the end Maybe it'll be Jack and Kate who manage to set it off by a timer to give themselves time to hustle back to the caves where they hoped to be able to avoid incineration but rather they die of radiation sickness instead to become the future "Adam and Eve". OH!! And here's a thought... the white and black stones found in their pocket is a message they sent to their future selves in hopes that they do something differently to avoid it... perhaps the black and white stones in the pouch together means that when they go back to 1977 again (because they are in a time loop that keeps repeating) they should get the "good" people and the "bad" people to work together to solve the problems.

But if Daniel is even just a little bit wrong about Jack and Kate and the other O6 passengers not having to go back then there's a high possibility that he might also be wrong about having to detonate the h bomb and if that is the case, maybe his death last night was a change in the timeline. We were left assuming that Daniel had failed but what if his failure to use the bomb *was* the change? What if it was exploding that bomb that started off this whole time loop the island and the Losties are trapped in. Daniel dying instead of setting that bomb if might be the things that is different. If Daniel didn't have that gun he could have walked into the Hostile camp and had a pretty calm talk with Richard and Elly but because Jack was there and because Jack had the key to the gun locker put that stupid little gun in Daniel's hand. The gun was the focus of several scenes in last night's episode which suggests it's presence was important. Without the gun, Daniel would not have been a threat to Richard and would not have been shot by Elly and he would likely have been able to get the bomb and explode it possibly doing more damage than the magnetism ever did.

Last night Eloise was nervous because she didn't know what would happen when Daniel went to the Hostiles. She knew what sacrifice she was possibly making by telling Jack and the O6 they had to go back. Daniel must not be allowed to blow up that bomb and giving Jack the key to the gun locker was the only way to do that. She just had to hope she had the strength as a young woman, to put a bullet in him.

[bongzilla]

One thing I didn't like was that: English Mom + English Dad = Kid with American accent....where did that come from?

We've yet to meet Daniel's adopted father, presumably named Faraday. (Maybe Mike Faraday? ) Eloise probably raised Daniel in America.

Not really a burning mystery to me and I'm fully okay if it's never definitively answered.

[Water]

One thing I didn't like was that: English Mom + English Dad = Kid with American accent....where did that come from?

We've yet to meet Daniel's adopted father, presumably named Faraday. (Maybe Mike Faraday? ) Eloise probably raised Daniel in America.

Not really a burning mystery to me and I'm fully okay if it's never definitively answered.

It reminds me of years ago Diane Sawyer was doing Good Morning America. They were doing a tour of Canadian cities. One stop brought them to Quebec City where Diane Sawyer interviewed Celine Dion where she asked Celine "So you are the youngest of 14 children. Are your brothers and sisters also french?"

[jandefischer]

I’ve been thinking about the Comic Con video that others have mentioned here. From the time that Daniel first approached Chang till the time he left with Jack and Kate a few hours had passed. Perhaps he convinced him and Sawyer and he filmed the video. Now we see that Sawyer is in deep trouble. Perhaps his way out is to tell Radzinsky to take him to Chang who will explain that he is from the future and that there is a disaster impending. That may be the way that Sawyer, Juliet et al. escape from the clutches of Radzinsky and the gang.

[frekkells]

Add another one to the list who doesn't understand Eloise Hawking. I get that she holds to the Whatever Happened, Happened theory. But she also knows destiny/fate will course correct. Now I am speaking as a mother here, but how could she know she was going to kill her own child and just refuse to do it and let it course correct? Let someone or something else do it; as a mother it makes no sense to me at all. I have never been an Other either, maybe I would understand if I had been.